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multiplus_faq [2018-01-23 07:17] guystewartmultiplus_faq [2023-02-16 01:50] (current) guy_stewart
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-What to do when a MultiPlus, or Quattro, does not accept generator power +__What to do when a MultiPlus, or Quattro, does not accept generator power 
-----+__
  
 Power supply from a generator is typically more variable than a power supply from shore or the main grid. The MultiPlus is sensitive to this and will reject power that is outside of it's programmed settings causing the unit to not connect, synchronise or charge.  Power supply from a generator is typically more variable than a power supply from shore or the main grid. The MultiPlus is sensitive to this and will reject power that is outside of it's programmed settings causing the unit to not connect, synchronise or charge. 
  
-**Selecting a Generator**+==== Selecting a Generator ====
  
-Some generators are more suitable than others for use with inverter/chargers, please talk to your local Victron Dealer before purchasing a generator and they may be able to advise you on locally available units that have been tested and are known to be good.+ 
 +Some generators are more suitable than others for use with inverter/chargers, please talk to [[https://www.victronenergy.com/where-to-buy|your local Victron Dealer]] before purchasing a generator and they may be able to advise you on locally available units that have been tested and are known to be good. It is recommended to get a generator from a supplier that is local to you for issues and servicing.
  
 For example; some things to look for when selecting a generator is a high quality alternator and AVR (auto voltage regulation). For example; some things to look for when selecting a generator is a high quality alternator and AVR (auto voltage regulation).
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-**Generator Sizing** +==== Generator Sizing ====
- +
-It is possible to overload generators with the power demanded by the Multi's charger. The following generator sizings are indicative of those sizes are appropriate for the charging potential of the various multis. It is still possible to overload these generator sizings with large loads, and flat batteries using the PowerAssist function, so they should be treated as safe minimums to eliminate this as a potential cause of issues. +
  
-2 kVa - 800VA Multi+It is possible to overload generators with the power demanded by the Multi's charger. The following generator sizings are indicative of those sizes are appropriate for the charging potential of the various multis. It is still possible to overload these generator sizings with large loads, and flat batteries using the PowerAssist function, so they should be treated as safe minimums to eliminate this as a potential cause of issues. A bigger generator is usually better. 
  
-2.5 kVa -  1200VA Multi+^ Inverter Charger Size ^ Minimum Recommended Generator Size ^ 240V AC Input Current Limit ^ 
 +| 800VA | 2 kVa | 5A | 
 +| 1200VA | 2.5 kVa | 7A | 
 +| 1600VA | 3 kVa | 10A | 
 +| 3000VA | 5 kVa | 16A | 
 +| 5000VA | 8 kVa | 25A | 
  
-3 kVa - 1600VA Multi+If your generator is smaller than the recommended size for your inverter/charger, you will definitely need to adjust the settings on the inverter/charger and reduce the AC input current limit, and/or a DC charge current limit to prevent overloading the generator.
  
-5 kVa - 3000VA Multi+If you do want an inverter based generator (eg for noise reasons under lower loading), get one that is at least 30% larger than required than an equivalent AVR based model to help prevent nuisance overloads.
  
-8 kVa - 5000VA Multi+It is also important to look at the DUTY CYCLE rating of the generator. Some generators are marketed for their peak output, but may only be designed to sustain 50% of that peak load rating for longer periods of time. 
  
 +Battery charging is a very heavy use case load for a generator, so make sure it is up to the job, and the installation has plenty of good airflow and ventilation when operating to allow for heat to dissipate. 
  
 +Some generators are only designed to operate for several hours, before requiring time to rest and cool down. Make sure this limitation is part of your load profile and system design. 
 +==== Operation ====
  
-**Operation** 
  
 It is important to note that the inverter/charger may take a minute or more to synchronise (though it can be much quicker). Treat the equipment with patience if the settings are thought to be correct. It is important to note that the inverter/charger may take a minute or more to synchronise (though it can be much quicker). Treat the equipment with patience if the settings are thought to be correct.
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-**Software Changes**+==== Software Settings ==== 
  
 The settings which you should attempt first are 'Disable UPS mode' and 'Enable Dynamic Current limiting'. These compromise features, but maintain the quality of the power supply.  The settings which you should attempt first are 'Disable UPS mode' and 'Enable Dynamic Current limiting'. These compromise features, but maintain the quality of the power supply. 
    
-If the generator will still not synchronise or disconnects, try turning on the setting for Weak AC. This will compromise efficiency. +If the generator will still not synchronise or disconnects, try turning on the setting for Weak AC. This will compromise efficiency, but allow for a wider variation in wave form distortion to be accepted
  
 Lastly, adjusting the settings for Voltage and Frequency windows. These are higher risk to your appliances, they should only be used cautiously when it is confirmed that the loads will tolerate the out of specification power supply. This should be done by a competent technician with the aid of a multimeter and only opened so far as to allow for safe functionality.  Lastly, adjusting the settings for Voltage and Frequency windows. These are higher risk to your appliances, they should only be used cautiously when it is confirmed that the loads will tolerate the out of specification power supply. This should be done by a competent technician with the aid of a multimeter and only opened so far as to allow for safe functionality. 
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 Warning: changing these settings will allow to feed-through current that may be of insufficient quality for the electrical requirements of your equipment. Warning: changing these settings will allow to feed-through current that may be of insufficient quality for the electrical requirements of your equipment.
  
-For information on VE-Configure and how to get started, please see this [[https://www.victronenergy.com/support-and-downloads/software|VE Configure Software page]], or contact your [[https://www.victronenergy.com/where-to-buy|local Victron dealer.]]+For information on VEConfigure and how to get started, please see this [[https://www.victronenergy.com/support-and-downloads/software|VE Configure Software page]], or contact your [[https://www.victronenergy.com/where-to-buy|local Victron dealer.]]
  
-====== 1. In the “Grid” tab of VE-Configure: ======+====== 1. In the “Grid” tab of VEConfigure: ======
  
  {{:veconfigure:grid_tab.jpg?nolink&400|}}  {{:veconfigure:grid_tab.jpg?nolink&400|}}
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 **AC low disconnect:** low limit: below this value, the MultiPlus will disconnect (default = 180Vac). **AC low disconnect:** low limit: below this value, the MultiPlus will disconnect (default = 180Vac).
  
-On generators where the output voltage drops under load, setting this value to a higher value can help solve shutdowns on overload.+On generators where the output voltage drops under load, setting this value to a higher value can help resolve inverter overload shutdowns.
  
-**AC Low connect:** minimum value: at this value or any higher value, the MultiPlus will reconnect after having disconnected (default = 187Vac).+The reason this happens is that the Multi will synchronise and follow the generator voltage as it sags.
  
 +If the generator is disconnected under load (either due to low-voltage disconnection, stalling, lack of fuel, etc) then when the Multi switches back to inverter mode; it must immediately supply all the power required by the loads at that same low voltage (and subsequent higher current).
 +
 +As overload is driven by current, not power, this can result in an overload.
 +
 +By increasing this minimum voltage level, you tell the inverter/charger switch to inverter mode sooner, at higher voltage and thus lower AC current, and potentially prevent the overload from occurring.
 +
 +**AC Low connect:** minimum value: at this value or any higher value, the MultiPlus will reconnect after having disconnected (default = 187Vac).
 ===== 1.4 Maximum voltage levels ===== ===== 1.4 Maximum voltage levels =====
  
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-===== 1.5 Loss of mains detection (LOM) =====+===== 1.5 Loss of mains detection (LOM) (Only applicable to ESS systems) =====
  
-For Full information on Loss of Mains detection, please see [[ve.bus:grid-codes-and-loss-of-mains-detection|this more detailed explanation.]]+This part is only applicable on systems where a grid-code is selected (generally only ESS systems) on an off-grid system a grid code should not be used and in the selection box for grid code, 'none' should be selected.
  
-==== What is LOM detection? ====+Loss of mains detection will push and pull at voltage and frequency to see if there is still a generating source. This process can cause issues with some generators, or high impedance connections to generators. 
  
-LOM is an automatic process that detects a change and loss of the generator/grid supply. After the detection, the inverter/charger will open its back-feed relaymaking sure there is no live AC voltage on its AC-inputsand anything connected to these inputs.+For large and stable Generators Type B LOM will workand is safer. 
 +However, if you are experiencing issues with voltage, frequency or power fluctuations, you may wish to try Disabling LOM.
  
-==== Why is LOM detection required? ====+**Disabling LOM**
  
-The purpose of LOM is to detect that the Multi is no longer connected to the mainsBe that generator or the grid. In such casethe Multi needs to open its back-feed relay. Not doing that would be unsafe+Disabling the LOM on an input connected to the grid is only allowed when other external safety equipment is installed. 
 +Disabling the LOM on an input connected to generator can be done, but then other methods / warning signs / physical lockout safety measures must be providedEnsuring that any installer that will work on the generator, wiring or systemwill make sure to also switch off or otherwise disconnect the Inverter/charger system.
  
-==== How does LOM detection relate to overload shutdowns? ==== +For Full information on Loss of Mains detection, please see [[ve.bus:grid-codes-and-loss-of-mains-detection|this more detailed explanation.]]
- +
-To detect a loss of mainsthe inverter/charger will constantly try to shift the AC frequencyWhen connected to a stable mains generator/grid supply, with a normal accepted impedance, it will not be possible to do so, and it can therefor detect that the mains is still present. In case the mains was lost, the inverter/charger will be able to shift the frequency at will, without any resulting correction currents. +
- +
-When connected to a generator, with a long extension cable or long ‘last mile’ cable, the pushing and pulling on the grid does create high currents, and as a result the inverter/charger algorithm can become unstable and switch itself off in overload. +
- +
-==== LOM detection Type A and Type B ==== +
-LOM detection comes in two flavours: **Type A** and **Type B**. +
- +
-**Type A** is the strongest form LOM detection, which results in the quickest detection time. It requires a low impedance connection to the grid (short, well sized cables). LOM **Type A** will not work with generators. +
- +
-**Type B** has a more soft approach. Resulting in a slightly longer detection time. Still acceptable in several countries (South-Africa, and probably, though not tested and certified yet, also Germany). On generators, and also connection with a relatively high impedance mains connection, **Type B** will work better than **Type A**. +
- +
-For generators on which also **Type B** does not work, see Disabling LOM. +
- +
- +
-==== Disabling LOM ==== +
- +
-Besides choosing Type A and B, it is also possible to disable the LOM entirely. +
-Note disabling the LOM on an input connected to the grid is only allowed when other external safety equipment is installed. +
- +
-Disabling the LOM on an input connected to generator can be done, but then other methods / warning signs must be provided. Ensuring that any installer that will work on the generator will make sure to also switch off or otherwise disconnect the Inverter/charger system.+
  
  
-{{ :ve.bus:grid_code_compliant.png?direct |}} +**Example configuration in VEConfigure**
-===== Example configuration in VEConfigure =====+
  
   * A generator that requires LOM to be disabled.   * A generator that requires LOM to be disabled.
   * Generator on AC in 1, and grid on AC in 2, as recommended.   * Generator on AC in 1, and grid on AC in 2, as recommended.
  
-{{ :ve.bus:grid-code.png?direct |}}+{{::lom_generator.jpg?direct&400|}}
  
-===== Questions ===== 
  
-==== Q1: Where can I get the password? ==== 
  
-A: From your dealer. +====== 2. In the “General” tab of VEConfigure: ======
- +
-==== Q2: Can I use ESS in a vehicle or a boat? ==== +
- +
-A: No you cannot. After unplugging the shore cord it can take up to a few seconds for the system to detect the loss of mains and open the back-feed relay. During those seconds, the shore power plug will be `live`: there is 230 Volts AC on the terminals. The exact number of seconds differs per country and depends on the local requirements. +
- +
-The same applies to other solution where the wiring is not protected against accidental removing, for example a simple cable with end-user removable plug, such as a portable power supply. +
- +
-==== Q3: Can I use ESS with a generator? ==== +
- +
-A: Yes you can. Note that the only installation type where that makes sense is a land based installation (no boat, and no vehicle). A Quattro must be used with AC input 1 connected to the generator, and AC input 2 connected to the grid. The role of the generator will be to provide power during a long grid failure. +
- +
-Some, bigger or better quality generators, will be able to work with LOM **Type B**. For other less stable generators it will be required to disable LOM entirely. In that case make the installation such that it is still safe: no simple extensions cords, use enclosed wiring cabinets with warnings on the outside and/or an external ENS. +
- +
-==== Q4: I use ESS, but have disabled feed-back, is a grid-code still required? ==== +
- +
-A: Yes, also in this case LOM is required to make for a safe and also local regulations compliant system. Running ESS with disabled-feed-back is still not the same as using a Multi in its default configuration without ESS.  +
- +
- +
-====== 2. In the “General” tab of VE-Configure: ======+
  
 {{::veconfigure:general_tab.jpg?nolink&400|}} {{::veconfigure:general_tab.jpg?nolink&400|}}
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 ===== 2.2 AC Input Current Limit ===== ===== 2.2 AC Input Current Limit =====
  
-The charger on the Multiplus is very powerful. If you have an existing generator that is not able to supply the maximum charging current of the Multi, you will need to adjust the AC Input Current Limit in the General Tab of VE-Configure.+The charger on the Multiplus is very powerful. If you have an existing generator that is not able to supply the maximum charging current of the Multi, you will need to adjust the AC Input Current Limit in the General Tab of VEConfigure.
  
 A reasonable starting point for the AC Current input limit is 80% of the generator capacity in Watts. For example:  A reasonable starting point for the AC Current input limit is 80% of the generator capacity in Watts. For example: 
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-====== 3. In the "Charger" tab of VE-Configure: ======+====== 3. In the "Charger" tab of VEConfigure: ======
  
 {{:veconfigure:charger_tab.jpg?nolink&400|}} {{:veconfigure:charger_tab.jpg?nolink&400|}}
  
-**Derating of the power factor**+===== 3.1 Derating of the power factor =====
  
 Some generators have a waveform which makes it difficult to charge with the normal charge mechanism. Through activating the "**Weak AC input**" function, another mechanism is used which will enable the MultiPlus to charge under practically any condition. Some generators have a waveform which makes it difficult to charge with the normal charge mechanism. Through activating the "**Weak AC input**" function, another mechanism is used which will enable the MultiPlus to charge under practically any condition.
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 This leading or lagging power factor will have the effect of demanding more kVa from the generator for the same or less DC Watts delivered to the batteries. You may need to further reduce the DC Current Limit in the Charger tab of VEConfigure if the generator continues to overload after changing this setting. This leading or lagging power factor will have the effect of demanding more kVa from the generator for the same or less DC Watts delivered to the batteries. You may need to further reduce the DC Current Limit in the Charger tab of VEConfigure if the generator continues to overload after changing this setting.
 +
 +Effectively, when Weak AC is enabled, the total charge current possible will be less that the rated maximum charge current output of the charger (under normal conditions).
  
  
 **Important note:** **Important note:**
  
-A detailed description of all settings is available in the VE-Configure help menu, and more instructions are available in our manuals. +A detailed description of all settings is available in the VEConfigure help menu, and more instructions are available in our manuals. 
-===== Disqus ===== + 
-~~DISQUS~~+====== 4. In the “Inverter” tab of VEConfigure: ====== 
 + 
 +===== 4.1 PowerAssist ===== 
 + 
 +The [[https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/White-paper-Achieving-the-impossible-EN.pdf|PowerAssist feature]] can be extremely useful, however it restricts the minimum AC input current limit and this may exceed your generators ability to supply. The [[https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2018/04/20/multiplus-quattro-inverter-chargers-improved-current-limits/|exact restriction varies between models - see here for the list.]] 
 + 
 +If you have a small generator and have trouble getting connected or staying connected, Disable PowerAssist to allow the device to reduce the AC input current limit.  
 + 
 +====== 5. Generator control in 3 phase and parallel systems ====== 
 + 
 +There is some specific and non-intuitive conditions when setting AC input current limits, and Charge Current limits for Large systems that involve more than one MultiPlus, and/or a GX device. 
 + 
 +Those specific details are articulated here: 
 +https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ve.bus:manual_parallel_and_three_phase_systems#configuration 
 + 
 +Described in the online training theory here: 
 +@ 38 minutes and 43 seconds - https://professional.victronenergy.com/online-training/20/ 
 + 
 +Demonstrated in the 3 phase installation training here: 
 +@ 25 minutes - https://professional.victronenergy.com/online-training/21/ 
 + 
 +====== Still not connecting? ====== 
 + 
 +If the unit is still not connecting,  
 + 
 +Check the VE.Bus Monitor and AC Input Connection timer 
 + 
 +{{::veconfige_107016584.png?direct|}} 
 + 
 +With Multi firmwares xxyy460 and up, VEConfig will indicate why the AC Input is rejected and will also show an indication of the remaining waiting time as a blue bar. 
 + 
 +After the waiting time the unit will connect to AC input provided that there is no assistant which prevents the unit from connecting to grid and that the required relay test is performed. 
 + 
 +Switch the Multi over to Charger only mode.  
 + 
 +Try with a different generator. 
 + 
 +As troubleshooting and correcting these faults have serious safety implications, they are best discussed with a local installer who has appropriate electrical qualifications, or your Victron Dealer. 
 + 
 +There can be issues with generators with Residual Current Devices (RCD's), control electronics or circuit breakers. There is some discussion about troubleshooting these issues on this [[https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/1702/multiplus-with-generator-and-residual-current-devi.html|Victron Community Question - Multiplus With Generator And Residual Current Device]]. 
 + 
 +Simplify the AC wiring, With everything safely shut down and tested for voltage, disconnect the AC-Output active, neutral and earth. Direct wire in the generator connections, with no other bus bar links. A common neutral can cause issues. 
 + 
 +If there is still no connection, contact your dealer or distributor. Tell them the steps that you have taken already to attempt to get it to work and they can help from there. 
 + 
 + 
 +====== Further Reading ====== 
 + 
 +There have been extensive articles and documentation written about generators and their interaction with Victron systems. This includes troubleshooting, real-world application and theory. 
 + 
 +[[https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2016/08/29/multiplus-magic-small-generator-big-power/|MultiPlus magic: Small generator, big power]] - In depth blog article with a real world application of a sailing yacht. 
 + 
 +[[https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/White-paper-Using-the-MultiPlus-to-reduce-operating-cost-of-a-generator-EN.pdf|Using the Multiplus to reduce operating cost of a generator]] - Fuel Saving White-paper. 
 + 
 +[[https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/VE_Marine_generator_test_RVA_07-jan-2008.pdf|Marine Generator Test]] - Detailed testing and the application of marine diesel powered generators in small hybrid power systems 
 + 
 +[[https://www.victronenergy.com/live/auto-generator-start-stop:start|Automatic Generator start/stop]] - Outline and reference for generator auto-start functionality in Victron systems. 
 + 
 +[[https://community.victronenergy.com/topics/generator.html|Victron Community Questions and Answers about generators.]] 
 + 
 +[[https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Honda%20white%20paper%20GB.pdf|Victron Inverter/Chargers and Honda Generators]] 
 + 
 +[[https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2018/04/20/multiplus-quattro-inverter-chargers-improved-current-limits/|MultiPlus & Quattro Inverter/Chargers: Minimum AC Input Current Limits]] 
 + 
 +[[https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/1702/multiplus-with-generator-and-residual-current-devi.html|Multiplus with Generator And Residual Current Devices]] 
 + 
 +===== Community Discussion on MultiPlus 2x120 and generator phase compatibility ===== 
 + 
 +[[https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/110548/multiplus-ii-2x120-generator-compatibility.html|Multiplus II 2x120 generator compatibility]] 
 + 
 +[[https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/128941/multiplus-ii-2x120-with-onan-5500.html|Multiplus II 2x120 with onan 5500 generator]] 
 + 
multiplus_faq.1516688222.txt.gz · Last modified: 2018-01-23 07:17 by guystewart

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